Program: Turia Pitt is a selfish woman

Elsa

Hey ladies, this episode deals with some heavy content around mental health. If you're struggling, there is help available and we'll put some resources in the show notes.

Turia

I've been giving and nurturing and putting the needs of others before my own. And that led me to being resentful and stressed and shitty and being burned out.

Yumi

If Turia Pitt is known for anything, it's her incredible resilience. She became a household name when she was caught in a grass fire in 2011 during a 100km run in WA's Kimberley. She had burns to 65% of her body, lost seven fingers and spent two years in hospital. It was so full on that she wasn't expected to survive. Now Turia's a motivational speaker and best-selling author. She's known for being a relatable, woman-next-door kind of person while also being a badass, high achiever with millions of fans who's happily married, a parent, super fit and super hardworking. But being a working mum, it turns out, is its own ultra marathon. And there's no finish line. A few years ago, Turia was running on empty and close to burnout. So she started the Selfish Project and what would become her latest book called Selfish. In it, Turia lays out a radical act, prioritising oneself and unlearning the rules of being a good woman to be, well, a happier one. I'm Yumi Stynes, ladies we need to talk about learning to be selfish with Turia Pitt. Turia's Selfish Project was kicked off in 2022 after one fateful, slightly crabby midweek night with her two kids and her husband, Michael.

Turia

Michael and I had both finished work for the day and I'm sure if anyone's listening, they can relate to that kind of feeling of stress you have simmering beneath the surface when you walk through your door after work all day.

Yumi

The kids are hungry for food and attention and someone's got to start on the cooking.

Turia

So I walk in the door, I start making dinner and I look over at my beautiful husband. He's sitting on the couch and I have this thought in my head. I think, oh, that would be nice. That would be nice to be able to sit down and kick back and relax. But

Yumi

this is not relaxing hour. So Turia makes dinner, everyone sits down and eats and then she gets up again to clear the table when her four-year-old pipes up.

Turia

He wants some hot chocolate. So I go, OK, no worries, man, I'll make you a hot chocolate. So I bring out the materials and he looks at the brand of hot chocolate I've brought and he says, that's the wrong brand. Because of course it is. I'm feeling like really pushed to my limit at this point and I'm feeling snarky as well. And so I say, well, why don't you ask your dad to buy you the brand of hot chocolate that you like? And quick as a whip, he retorts, no, that's your job. Dun, dun, dun.

Yumi

Cue spiral about failing as a feminist and the effing patriarchy and questioning her life choices up to this point.

Turia

That night when the kids were in bed, I didn't really feel very good because I felt like I was trying to do everything for everyone in my family. I was trying to think of others. I was being a good boss at work. I was being a good friend. I was being a good daughter. I was saying yes to people. But even though I was doing this thing and I was being selfless, something always fell through the cracks, like getting the brand of hot chocolate for one. And I didn't want to be shitty and resentful.

Yumi

Turia wanted to be happier, more relaxed and more present and unshitty and unresentful. Being a problem solver, she decided she was going to read all the research and gather all the wisdom from people she admired to learn how to put the same care into herself that she put into everyone around her. First, though, she needed a catchy name.

Turia

I thought maybe the project could be called being something to everyone else as well as being something to myself. And I thought, no, that's not going to work. That's not very marketable.

Yumi

Enter Project Selfish. Just the word itself felt scandalous.

Turia

And I think particularly for women, it's loaded because women are valorised. We're put on a pedestal for how selfless we are. When a bride and groom get married, the groom will often say, I love Turia because of how selfless she is, of how giving she is, of how nurturing she is and how caring she is. And I've been giving and nurturing and caring and looking after others and putting the needs of others before my own. And that led me to being resentful and stressed and shitty and being burned out.

Yumi

A few months before the hot chocolate incident, Turia's family moved from coastal New South Wales to far north Queensland for her husband's career as a helicopter pilot. It meant she didn't have the support network she'd had back home.

Turia

We'd moved away from our family and friends. We were living in an area where my mum was around the corner and she was amazing with our kids. I'd say, I've got to do this for work. She'd come around. And I definitely took that for granted.

Yumi

When they moved away, Turia was still working full time, but from home. It meant that she was the one who picked up the parenting slack.

Turia

I'd work late at night and I would just try and do everything that I thought I had to so that my kids didn't miss out and that my beautiful man, the guy that looked after me when I was in hospital, fed me soup, drove me to doctor's appointments, changed my bandages, that I could support his career as well. And so we didn't have any family around at the time. I didn't really have a big community of people around me, but it felt really isolating. I really felt like it was just Michael and I who cared about our kids.

Yumi

It's lonely when you feel like you don't have a village. And let's remember that Turia was still dealing with the lasting impacts of her burns. With Michael away more, she had times of feeling profoundly frustrated by her limitations.

Turia

I had to really confront the nature of living with a disability because when Michael was around, I could almost pretend it wasn't there. So, for example, I'm cooking dinner, can't open a jar of pasta sauce. Hey, Michael, can you just open this? Yep, no worries, darling. He doesn't make a big deal about it. It's like it almost doesn't exist for me. But when Michael's not there, there's fucking no one to open the jar of pasta sauce.

Yumi

On a bad day, Turia would feel like her disabilities were preventing her from being the hands-on parent that little kids need.

Turia

There's certain things that I can't do, you know, like buttoning up their school shirts, helping them with their shoelaces. And for sure, I think my kids are going to be really empathetic human beings, but at the same time, it feels really fucking shit to not be able to button up your kid's shirt if they ask, or be able to do their shoelaces, or be able to put on their bike helmet.

Yumi

So there were the physical challenges, everyday frustrations that made life harder. There was also some nasty scrutiny about Turia's capacity to mother, but that was coming from inside her own head.

Turia

My inner critic gets really, really hectic, really full on.

Yumi

If it's not already clear, Turia has high expectations of herself.

Turia

I'd beaten the fire, I'd done the Ironman World Championship, I was a big dog. So like, how hard could it be? Partners working away, like big deal. Heaps of people have their partners working away. You're running a business, again, big fucking deal. Heaps of people run their own business. Oh, and your kids, well you wanted the kids, like you wanted a family. You've got these perfect little kids, so again, like stop bitching about it and get on with it. So I was incredibly, incredibly cruel to myself.

Yumi

Turia tried to push on, but she was struggling. There were other life stressors at the same time. A close colleague left her business, and there was tension with some family members. Her high achieving get over it mindset didn't allow for wavering, resting, or even cutting herself a bit of slack. Around this time, she was turning to alcohol to soothe her stress. Isolated, maxed out, and with a glass of wine in her hand, Turia's thoughts took a grim turn.

Turia

I started thinking really strange things like that my kids deserved a different mum. That I was an inconvenience, that I was in the way, that, again, it was really scary.

Yumi

Thankfully, Turia called a close girlfriend and had a very honest chat.

Turia

She encouraged me to go get some mental health support.

Yumi

Turia first booked an appointment with the GP.

Turia

When I went in to see her, my book, Happy and Other Ridiculous Aspirations, was on the fucking shelf. I look really hot, I'm on the cover, got like a wind machine. And she was like, what can I help you with today? And I think I just cried and I was like, I'm here for a mental health plan.

Yumi

Turia had been to a psychologist after the fire back in 2011, and it had been helpful. But this time around, like a lot of us do when we're toppling into a mental health abyss, she didn't think she was mad enough or sad enough or bad enough to deserve help.

Turia

I suppose I always expected that I would only need mental health support if I went through something catastrophic. And now I know that if there is something that I'm struggling with, it's okay to tell people. If people offer help, you accept the help off them as well.

Yumi

So as someone who had actually been through something catastrophic, Turia understood finally that struggling to survive comes in many forms. She got a mental health plan from the GP and started seeing a psychologist. Turia felt relieved there was an action plan in place, but was still pretty corked. She started to research the concept of burnout.

Turia

Burnout affects people who are overachievers, who do tie their identity closer to work, who do try and do everything and try and do everything to a really high standard. So it doesn't feel good for my ego to be like, oh, I can't do that, and I don't have the time, and that's not good for my well-being.

Yumi

And anyone who's a parent knows that the biggest time suck in your life isn't work, and it certainly isn't all the prestige television we don't have time to watch. The biggest time suck for parents is parenting. So one of the things Turia started exploring was being a good enough parent, which felt revolutionary to her at the time, even though she'd kind of experienced a version of that with her own parent.

Turia

My dad didn't try and be this amazing, excellent parent that gave their kids a magical childhood. He was quite tough. He was a good enough parent. If we try and make things perfect for our kids, we're going to rob them of failing, we're going to rob them of the chance to develop their resilience, we're going to rob them of a lot of these normal experiences that happen, and if they don't happen in childhood, the fall that they're going to have as an adult is going to be bigger, and they might not know what to do because they've never failed before.

Yumi

This good enough parenting wasn't just about building resilience in the kids. It was also about accepting that as a mum, she didn't actually need to be perfect.

Turia

Maybe you don't have to take your kids to their after school activities in Tsavo. Maybe they're going to have to miss out, and maybe that's going to be okay because that means you might not have to rush around like a blue-ass fly trying to get everything done. Maybe you can order school lunches.

Yumi

During this time, Turia opened up to her own mum about the fact that she was struggling.

Turia

She said that I had given away too much of my manna, and I freaked out. So, manna is like your spiritual energy or your spiritual power. It's a word that Polynesians use, and so she said, you've given away too much of your manna. I was like, how do I, what do you mean? How do I get it back? And she said, you can restore your manna, and one of the ways that I started to restore my manna was by implementing those boundaries.

Yumi

Boundaries. This was a huge thing in Turia's selfish quest, and for a lot of us who invest so much in being likeable.

Turia

I didn't want to rock the boat. I wanted to be palatable. I wanted to make sure everyone else was okay. I'll just deal with it internally, and I'll just make sure everyone else is good. And probably the best example of that is I often get people coming up to me and saying, what happened to you? Or, wow, that must have been really traumatic. Can you tell me what happened?

Yumi

It's worth repeating that in asking a question like this, you may be asking someone to go back in time to one of the very worst days of their lives, and a person's medical history is nobody's business but their own.

Turia

I've always tried to make them feel good about asking an intrusive question. Don't want their pity. Don't worry, mate, it's all good. I got burnt years ago, but I'm happy I'm good. I live a good life. Like, it's all good. So I'd spend all of this energy making this stranger. I didn't even know their name. Making this stranger feel good about asking me an intrusive question.

Yumi

Like the time when Turia and her son were at the park when another stranger came up to her to ask about her burns.

Turia

And I was holding my son's hand, and I could feel him squeezing my hand and trying to drag me away as if to say, mummy, can we go? Can we get out of here? And I realised that I wasn't setting a very good example for them because I was teaching them, like literally teaching them that if a stranger comes up and asks you something that you don't want to talk about, you know what? You've got to answer them. And you know what? You better be polite about it. And you know what? You better not make that stranger feel bad about asking you a question that you're not really comfortable with answering.

Yumi

Turia started working with her psychologist on boundary setting. She was going to restore her manner. Her psych actually suggested she try not responding to these people at all.

Turia

And I was like, that's really rude. If someone asks you a question, you have to respond. Like you can't just walk away. And she was like, well, you can. You can just ignore them. So I was on a plane one time. I was going to a speech. It was a three-hour plane ride. This guy sits next to me, and he says, oh my gosh, what happened to you? You've got a good story, don't you? Wow. I know. He kind of had arsehole vibes, right? And so I put in my AirPods, and I fucking ignored this guy for three hours. The whole plane trip, I ignored him. I didn't make eye contact.

Yumi

This was massive from Turia. It went against so much of what she'd been conditioned to believe growing up.

Turia

You don't be rude. You make other people feel comfortable. It's only a question. But I also noticed something else, and that I felt empowered by setting that boundary with this guy. And so I wouldn't say I'm great at setting boundaries far from it, but I think setting boundaries around my energy, my time, what work I can take on rather than saying yes to everything, I think that's been probably the most impactful thing I did out of this whole Selfish project.

Yumi

So Turia had some tools in her toolkit for Project Selfish. She was dedicating time to seeing a psychologist. She wasn't squandering energy on rude people who gawked at her burns. She was an imperfect but good enough parent. She also got real with herself about her relationship with alcohol.

Turia

I'm probably more cognizant of the fact that if I am really stressed and really overwhelmed and I feel like buying alcohol, well, maybe that's a bit of a warning sign that you might be doing too much or, hey, you're going to have to do something to restore your manner.

Yumi

Once the serious stuff was locked away, Turia started to explore play.

Turia

There was always a bit of guilt associated in taking time to do leisure because I felt like it was indulgent.

Yumi

Turia realised that taking time to have her own fun is just as important as cooking the family dinner.

Turia

It's not indulgent, it's essential. Sitting down to read a book, that's restorative, that's good for you, that's for your wellbeing. And even though there might be evidence around me of shit that I need to do to keep the household on track, if I'm feeling frazzled and resentful, doing those things is just going to make me feel more frazzled and resentful and it's not going to help me to feel better. It's not going to make me feel calmer. It's not going to make me feel more at peace with my life.

Yumi

Absolutely right, but Turia is still working on feelings of guilt when she takes time for her own hobbies.

Turia

I went for a surf this morning and I felt a bit bad because there's all of these other ways that I could have spent my time this morning, right? But I didn't, I went for a surf instead. But I feel happier and energised and a bit better about myself. And I think anything that makes us feel happier and more energised and a little bit better about ourselves, then surely that is something that we should make time for.

Yumi

And for what it's worth, many psychologists will tell you that guilt is just a feeling. So what? You feel guilty? So what? It doesn't mean you're doing something wrong. It means that maybe you're going against your conditioning. Taking time for yourself and ditching the majority of your responsibilities by, for example, going on a massive hike with a group of your best girlfriends can make you feel so elated that all feelings of guilt leave your body. Turia experienced this, a four-day nature-filled bushwalk with no husbands, no kids and no phone reception. It was

Turia

so amazing and I didn't feel guilty as such. I felt liberated and just excited to go on this hike. Michael's so capable, so I was, I know some women would be worried about how things are going at home. I wasn't worried at all.

Yumi

I'd been on a hike recently. We were all really hesitant at the end to turn our phones back on.

Turia

Yeah, that's like that, doesn't it? And as soon as you turn it on, because this was right after the hike, we went to the pub and we all turned our phone on. Immediately I was fucking stressed. Like just immediately because you go, oh, that was supposed to happen.

Yumi

Yeah, weren't your friends' husbands texting them saying, where is the kids' stuff?

Turia

Yeah, they were getting texted about like, where is the goggles for swimming?

Yumi

It's so good, so annoying. Turia, after this big quest to become more selfish, where are you at now?

Turia

My mental health is so, so much better. I'm not depressed anymore. I'm like, yay, confetti, balloons, yay. So the difference between me now and last year is so stark. The contrast in how I feel like how I usually feel. Right. I've been depressed now twice in my life and once was after the fire and people sort of understand that. No shit, of course you're depressed. But then last year was really difficult. I was depressed then. And so now I've been through that. I can recognise the warning signs a little bit earlier on.

Yumi

Totally love that about lowering the bar, like that it doesn't have to be, you don't have to have literally survived a terrible fire to be able to ask for help and to be able to say, no, this can't continue as it is. Turia's written the book and now she has to live by the standards she's set and the boundaries she's drawn.

Turia

I'm tired. So that means that today I won't be able to get all the work that I need to get done. You know what? That's okay because I can email people and say to them, hey, we're not going to get this to you until next week, I'm sorry. Michael's home so he's going to cook dinner tonight. I don't have to worry about that. The house is messy. That's okay too because I can't, I'm only one person and I can't do everything. So I'm definitely more gentle with myself but probably more realistic about what's achievable in the day.

Yumi

Maybe, Turia says, you can pretend to the world that you can do it all but you can't actually lie to yourself.

Turia

If we're struggling, if something does bother us, we can't just bullshit to ourselves and pretend it's okay and just keep pushing it down inside of ourselves because at one point that you will erupt, it is going to come out, and maybe if a little earlier on you said, hey, I'm not comfortable with that, I'm not okay with that, I don't want to do that. If we'd been a little bit more selfish in putting forward our own needs, it wouldn't have gotten to such a crisis point.

Yumi

Well, thank you for talking to us today and helping women see and I guess feel that they have permission to ask for help, to take things off their plate, to say no and to set boundaries.

Turia

Yeah, thanks so much for having me. I love chatting to you.

Yumi

Yay, love you, T. You're a legend. Nice to talk to you.

Turia

Thank you. Thanks for that. I appreciate it.

Yumi

Hey, before we go, if you're interested in the ideas explored in this episode, please go back in our feed and look for episodes on both burnout and how to say no. And while you're on your phone, please give us a five-star rating, leave a comment and share an episode with your favourite WhatsApp chat.